Presenting episode 17, where we talk with David Goldfarb of DICE about narrative and story in games, Rick schools Ryan in Tom & Jerry history and we discuss every gamer's favorite subject: Lara Croft's boobs and whether or not they're responsible for the "disappointing" sales of Tomb Raider: Underworld. Personally, I think Lara embodies female indepedence from a male-dominated society because she doesn't seem to want to jump where I tell her to...
We had some minor audio hiccups that required some hasty editing thanks to David's crappy Swedish internet but we switched him to a telephone for the second half. My Finnish connection is just fine. Just saying...
Sorry. Finland made me do it.
Show notes:
I mentioned the Versus Clu Clu Land blog and highly recommend it for deeper thoughts on game narrative.
Jonathan Blow's Article on Game Narrative at odds with challenge
We couldn't find any info on the "sketch" mod for Half-Life so if you know about this, please send us a link and we'll post it here!
Episode 17 - The Narrative Imperative
(right click the above to download)
14 comments:
If games "Let you through" simple to have to see the story without effort involved, then they would be no better than DVD movies as interactive mediums.
Imagine if all games are like that Dragon's Lair DVD edition for PC with a mode that just "Plays" the whole game for you. It would also be similar to all those Disney knock off games made by Midas where they include a crappy 30 minute cartoon next to a Coloring and Puzzle game.
Scary look at something that could be?
Mgs 5---Press Play not "Start" ?
They key thing is that they might let you; they wouldn't make you. As a developer and a gamer, this is attractive because it discourages the 'rage quits' that make people shelf your game, never play it again and tell all their friends how much it sucks. In a perfect world, games would be the perfect difficulty for it's entire potential audience but it's just not realistic yet.
Gah! We seem to have a few cutting out problems in the second half too. The part where I was talking about Bioshock, I was saying I'd heard it was originally advantageous to harvest the little sisters and that you'd get more Adam for being evil but at some point the idea was shot down.
Ryan, that is sugarcoating.
Of course, not everyone can beat Contra, nor DMC3 but they AT LEAST beat Super Mario World.
Another aspect would be " Why are you throwing down the controller in frustration? "
1. The AI is a B...*ahem* Too hard
2. I dont want to take time and learn the game, want to WIIIIIIN.
3. The controls are BROKEN!
#1 Would fit with games like DMC3, Contra 4, Viewtiful Joe 2
The game is just hard for hardcore gamers.
#2 Would fit for thoses "storytelling games" the games have good controls, arent too hard but you just want to go on ahead: Mgs4 Bioshock etc...
#3 Would fit for games with good intentions but controls work against you : Tomb Raider, God Hand...etc
Now which one do you think occurs most often?
For me it seems like #2 and that's quite scary because it feels like there is less "sense of accomplishment" and more " I WIN YAY" It saddens me since most of us used to KICK ASSES at those old school platform + adventures and we gained alot from it; Quicker responses, better timing, better AI analysis.
Think about it man.
How did you feel when you whopped the heck out of a game like Strider or Castlevania.
Raising up to the challenge, is a feeling that's starting to lack. If we simply "let" players through difficult parts then they're "difficulty" standard will constantly lower as no challenge will be imposed.
As long as the controls and camera aren't opposing the players *cough*deathtomegamanx7*cough* then the only reason the player "rage quits" could be because the player is a veteran of Barbie Horse rider where you would win even when failing at it.
And all that was the caffein talking.
For broken AI, bad cameras etc, I agree but the solution of "make all games really good and this won't be a problem" isn't terribly realistic. Nobody sets out to make a sucky game; it just happens for all kinds of reasons.
See, all gamers have different gaming prowess and desire for challenge. One-size-fits-all solutions never work and this is no different. So why should we deny someone full use of a product they purchased? Who are we to say "sorry, you can't use our stuff because you suck"? And honestly, games are a business and with the budgets these days, only the best of the best studios could make their money back on a AAA game catering to the hardcore and giving the mass market the middle finger.
I totally understand some people love a punishing difficulty level and that's awesome for them! But what I've never understood why the hardcore is so offended by the *option* of an easy way around, so long as they can still play it on hardcore-suicide mode.
more over than that, why are we so stuck on keeping this a skill based entertainment medium? I understand that worked best for getting around technical limitations of the past, but holding on to that, in my view, is the same thing as comics clinging so exclusively to super heroes. It is stunts the growth of the medium in trade of pandering to a limited fan base.
Games are an interactive medium, first and foremost. It is about immersing a character into a world, and if done well, into a story. And to say that we can do that, but it also has to be punishingly difficult, is absurd.
I'm not saying down with challenges, and there will always be studios that make games for the hardcore. But that, as Nintendo has shown, is but a SMALL percentage of the population. And if as game developers, we can latch onto that demographic but not substitute quality, as has been the problem with the Wii, THEN we will be an art form to reckon with. And the hardcore will always find a way to make it challenging. And if you ask me, that is a great place where modding can really come into its own even more, and fill that niche.
But as long as we cling to the need to punish the player with inane platforming or cheap enemy placements in every game we make, our design will get only more archaic.
These are the kinds of answers you get when you ask animators and not designers :P But really, it's not unlike denying people with shitty TVs the sale of a blu-ray player. "I'm sorry, you're not good enough for our product."
Mike, Ryan :
CHEAT Menus
STRATEGY GUIDES --30$
There are your solutions.
If a player lacks the skills to actually pass your game which isnt near Contra level but just slightly above average difficulty level, let the cheat menu kick in and spare yourselves hours of Ai tweaking to satisfy new gamers who have no time or will to EARN their "stories".
Mike:
"And the hardcore will always find a way to make it challenging."
Oh so the next time i play Super Castlevania 2103 for the wii, i might as well set myself on a : NO Damage, No Sound, No Hud, No EXP, No Item --- FINAL DESTINATION-Run.
Very unlikely, no reward system. So why bother buying an easy game with no reward for adding hardcore challenges? Why not just buy the Sims and be done with it. You know what,ill go get Wii Fit and lose some weight as an unlockable bonus lol.
"And if as game developers, we can latch onto that demographic but not substitute quality, as has been the problem with the Wii, THEN we will be an art form to reckon with."
Im sorry but we wont be an artform anymore, we'll become as bad as anime got with shows like Totally spy or Martin Mystery. Lets try to make it appealing to everyone !
Can you imagine that Mike, imagine Totally Spy, Totally bowling EX plus alpha Tournament edition, can you see it mike, Miiiiiike, MIIIIIIIIIIIIIKE.
Ok im clearly over-dramatizing here but this is slowly occurring. Do you seriously want the market filled with "We let you win/Everyone wins" type of games?
Achievements Mokuu. Right there are hollow rewards, and people love them. And honestly, those are more often than not just something that is tacked on or are found ways of making a challenge out of something that isn't necessary. And the hardcore LOVE achievements and trophies. So let's cater to that need for reward for skills, and allow the actual game to be an entertaining and immersive experience, without the need for someone to shell out additional money for a strategy guide. The whole idea of punishing the consumer, be it through ridiculous challenges or having to spend more money for the complete experience is just archaic. Achievements prove that all the hardcore needs for reward is a higher number.
I think on my Wii demographic point, you are assuming that I meant 100% casual. I am not talking about them, because they are content with Wii Fit, Sports, Play, etc. I am talking about the people that are past that, but not all about hardcore. You know, the majority of the gaming populace. The type that just want to have fun without having to restart 20 times to play the game. Because that isn't rewarding to anyone. Not the player, not the developer, and certainly not the design of the game.
I think the Kind code patent is a great way of catering to everyone. If people want "We let you win/Everyone wins" then they can have it, and if the hardcore want to beat it all on their own, then they can as well. And in the process, we developers don't have to sacrifice the idea of advancing the art form to more than just the flexing off of skills by introverted gamers with too much time on their hands.
Ultimately, my whole point is right now, mainstream games are all equivalent of Michael Bay movies and if the hardcore have their way and demand it always be skill based, it will stay as such. If we want to do drama, or something more than just puns and stereotypical interactions, skill based mechanics and numerical rewards are just one more superficial wall.
Mike, you seriously think the "virtual joystick length" competition/achievements without actual reward will compensate for easy AI and lack of challenge in games?
That's like picking up a Danny Phantom game SIMPLY for the achievements and story while the game itself is as easy as -Burn the rope-.
And lets be frank, Achievements will eventually die out once people realize how they are a cheap excuses for serious game unlockables and that in most games, they clearly don't affect the games themselves nor the overall PSN network=No actual reward. So when the "virtual joystick length"competition becomes less and less attractive/meaningful than boy, "it"'ll hit the fan.
And I still remain strong for the use of a Cheat menu to help the people who are too lazy to learn a game and still want to see the whole story.
Hell, id even be lenient enough towards adding the dreaded adaptive AI, slowly dropping from Normal to Baby level after the 2nd Continue.
That's somewhat passable, but seriously, don't add extra work on dumbfounding the AI for an audience the would most likely remain on WII sport or Spyro type of games, it ain't worth it, its not moving the industry and its just gonna make gamers lazier while making sure the next games get easier and easier.
Gamers will eventually see past that superficial wall which is achievements on their accounts and everything could just end up going back to challenging and fun gameplay instead of every new games trying to be the next lord of the rings of Video Games.
Big props to Indy games for that.
Mike's virtual joystick is ENORMOUS.
Ryan, Really? No way, lemme check...
*checks Mike's psn account via his Psn nickname*
holy shit! its OVER NIN THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAAND !
Grim Fandango.
Right on the front of the box it reads: "An epic tale of crime and corruption in the Land of the Dead."
Good point Kyle. Actually, I'm sure that was par for the course in the 90s. But these days, maybe not so much outside of RPGs.
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